8 October 2009
Rumblings from Settummanque about Girls in Cub Scouts
Posted by admin under: Boy Scout Reorganization .
Finally got a job after being unemployed for the last 9 months. Yay! Have to admit I wasn’t the most cheerful Scouter during that entire time. With new training I didn’t see a comment from Mike (Settummanque) regarding the idea of girls in the Cub Scouts. I don’t know why the blog held it up, but I just got it pushed out of the queue and I wanted to make sure everyone saw it, so here’s Mike’s comment:
Well…the handwriting’s on the wall; my National/Regional BSA office friends are telling me that there are *PAPER STUDIES* going on now to gauge the effect of having females to serve as Cub Scouts and WEBELOS Cub Scouts ONLY (no word on Boy Scouting/Varsity Scouting but my pennies say that it’s not too far off from being activily thought about).
Here’s why.
As the “total available (male) youth” or TAY (which is how the BSA gauges how to best support the program at all levels) continues to decline — don’t confuse this with membership; this is the total number of available MALE YOUTH of Scouting age for each program — the BSA has to do one of three things.
The first plan which is being considered is reducing the “overhead” of youth and adults in a unit. Right now, a unit technically consists of five youth, three adults with a chartering partner organization; or a Lone Scout unit consisting of a single male and an adult of either gender. The Girl Scouts of the USA got it right — their Troops consist basically of six females and two adults, with no chartering partner organization (what we in the BSA would consider a patrol, den, squad). This first plan is to downsize the unit to basically what the GSUSA has and call *that* a BSA unit. The effect of this is to basically break up the larger BSA units — mainly medium sized Packs and large Troops — into three, four, six smaller Troops or Packs with reduced leadership. Before everyone gets bent — this works to the BSA’s advantage as many GSUSA leaders are aware — as the Pack or Troop gets larger, it provides the opportunity for those units to combine to become larger when the TAY numbers increase.
The second plan which is being considered is the opportunity for female youth of Cub Scout age to become Cub Scouts and WEBELOS Cub Scouts. This is being looked at because there are increasingly more females of Cub Scout/WEBELOS Cub Scout (elementary school age) than males out there. There are several issues with this — the biggest is that at this age level, the GSUSA is doing a great job attracting youth to their Daisy, Brownie and Junior programs and there’s going to be a lot of push-back on their parts if this option is rolled out. Another smaller issue is that of utilization of Girl Scouting day camps being used by the BSA — in many terrorities it can be a mess. Finally, there’s the entire “girls need girl guidance and boys needs male guidance” stuff which kept females from serving as adult leaders, commissioners and professionals other than within Exploring. I think that this could be overcome over time. Uniforms do not have to be changed; insignia do not have to be changed; and the term “Cub Scout” and “WEBELOS Cub Scout” could pertain to males or females (”We’ll BE LOyal Scouts” can refer to either the BSA’s or GSUSA Scout programs)!
The third option seriously being considered is simply to continue the way we’re going and watch as many local Councils implode upon themselves simply because the male youth is no longer there in larger numbers as before. This means that we’ll see many local Councils become larger and larger and the number of professional and volunteer support will drop significantly. The effect that this has is that overall the BSA’s membership will drop to a point back similar to the middle 60s and we’ll be looking at our older youth programs as well as “variations” on our Cub Scout programming to try to pull us out.
Like I said, these are PAPER studies…as far as I’m aware, we don’t have female Cub Scouts *yet* but I won’t be surprised that in March or April of the year after next (we’ll have to get through the 100th anniversary first!) that we’ll see female youth in *some local Councils (class 1 Quality Councils) * working through a Nationally-coordinated plan to work through the effects of having female youth in Cub Scouting.
The BSA and GSUSA went down this road once before…in the early 70s. The two programs were working toward some sort of consolidation for a lot of reasons. It fell apart when the GSUSA refused to accept the BSA’s “chartering partnership” concept and when the BSA refused to drop the number of professionals to a core of three (Scout Executive, Assistant Scout Executive and Program Director) instead of the four or so professionals predominate in the smallest class Councils (Scout Executive, two District Executives and a Field Director or Senior District Executive).
I know that the BSA, the GSUSA, and Campfire are looking at ways to get past the “total available youth” situation. In the meantime, my personal advice to those who don’t want “girls in our BOY SCOUTING programs”, is to “make more male babies and sign them up for Cub Scouting when they are born….” *smiling*
The numbers are simply not there right now otherwise.
Settummanque!
For more from the mind of Mike check out his blog at http://www.settummanque.com/.
- Truth and Consequences for Urine Scouts
- Cubs: Pack Meeting Packed a Lot
- Cubs: Tigers are Easily Amused
- boyandgirlscouts.islam
- More on the End To Cub Scout Themes
13 Comments so far...
Kitsap Scouter Says:
9 October 2009 at 3:26 am.
Mike, how can they possible merge when they are so fundamentally different? I’m not referring to the gender differences, but to their core values. I certainly don’t see GSUSA adding back the religious component. GSUSA also has no restriction on homosexuals serving in leadership (if you’ve ever been in their Los Angeles office, that’s quite evident.)
*IF* BSA feels that they need to expand their base, it ought to be with an organization whose values more closely align with theirs. It appears that BSA is deciding to turn itself into simply another Boys & Girls Club. Bad move.
Tony Hooker Says:
9 October 2009 at 8:45 am.
Well, I’ve got a 7 year old who is a Wolf Cub now… And 3 3 year olds (2 boys, 1 girl) all wanting to copy their big brother.
If they do this, I sincerely hope that they do it soon, in time for all 3 of my youngest kids to be in the same den together. Admittedly, a bit of it is because of my own self-interest here, but I’d be perfectly willing to set traditions aside, so as to give boys AND girls a better scouting experience.
Although, I do think that Single Gender scout units should be an option for those Chartering organizations that wish to continue along that more traditional path. One Size does not, and should not fit all, and the needs of the local unit should be recognized.
New York OA Trader | Shared Items From Around The Web – October 9, 2009 Says:
9 October 2009 at 9:03 am.
[...] Rumblings from Settummanque about Girls in Cub Scouts [...]
Dean Whinery Says:
9 October 2009 at 3:04 pm.
Mike’s comments are pretty accurate. In the 70s the GS pur up a real squawk when the BSA started using “Scouting USA”. There was also a backlash from “old timers” in both camps concerning the proposal.
On the other hand, few National Organizations are not coed, or at least all under a single umbrella, with the US one of the few countries where this is not the case. Scouting in Britain, after a long decline, is growing again with the coed and muich greater outdoor emphasis. In México, I have not seen any problems with the coed concept, and Scouting is growing where it never existed before.
Mary Ann Chick Whiteside Says:
11 October 2009 at 11:25 pm.
Congrats on landing a job. So glad to hear that is the reason for the quietness on the blog.
Jason Spangler Says:
21 October 2009 at 10:40 pm.
I’ve got a 5-year old daughter who tagged along with me to an OA only week of camp this summer for two nights. She loved it! Here dad is an Eagle Scout, Woodbadge yada yada and selfishly would love to see her become a Cub. People in my conservative Southern church might not think its a great idea since we have an active GS program though. I also have an infant son now so one way or another I’ll have a cubbie in a few years but I’ll keep my fingers crossed that maybe before she hits 3rd grade something will happen on this front.
Erick "Raven" Says:
10 November 2009 at 9:14 pm.
One day!!!
One day the Girls will be a part of the Cub Scouts. The fundamental differences between the Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts is so drastic, that girls need this option. My son is a Webelos and has been doing it for 4 years now. His younger sister… she has been at every meeting he has been too, and has learned more, done more with Cub Scouts than GSA has to offer. She was a GS, but that program is not in-line with most girls… sort of old-school. The BSA has already integrated girls into their co-ed program (Venturing), and it seems to be doing very well. For now… I have to wait until my daughter is 14 before she can be a part of the outstanding BSA program.
Wendy Says:
17 November 2009 at 2:46 am.
I feel so far that BSA has it more together then GSUSA does. It seems that they are a lot more helpful. I found the differences between the two to be almost night and day. I was really surprised that GSUSA frowns on the girls working with the boys on community service projects and other things. I have 2 girls in GSUSA and 1 boy in BSA.
ScoutMama Says:
17 November 2009 at 1:59 pm.
From my experience as a Scout Leader in Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and now also as a Girl Scout leader, I am much more impressed by the BSA program’s then the GSA programs. My GSA co-leader and I are running our troop more like a Cub Scout den than we are a Girl Scout Troop. The girls are loving it and our Troop has filled out at 10 in our second year. Perfect size. I have been involved in BSA as a registered leader for seven years now and have learned so much through Scouting, Training, Woodbadge that it has helped me grow and stretch myself in opportunities that would have never happened had I not become involved. Scouting is not only a incredible program for youth, but for adults volunteers as well.
PurcellvilleScouter Says:
25 November 2009 at 12:30 pm.
The organizations will only ever become “one” if the BSA accepts girls at all levels, hastens the GSUSA decline, and eventually the Girl Scout organization dies. The Boy Scouts stand for traditional values and morality. Within the Girl Scout organization, such voices are radicalized and marginalized. With the growth of American Heritage Girls, such voices will no longer be heard by the GS, and this will only accentuate the GS move to the left, pushing them further out of step with the American public. As much as I don’t care for the GSUSA, I am not really looking forward to that happening, but I imagine it will at some point.
It has been kindness by the Boy Scouts to the left wing radical Girl Scouts that has kept from from offering a program for Girls in the past. How long will they continue to be “kind” to a competing organization that is so diametrically opposed to them? Only time will tell. Maybe the Girl Scouts will “fight back” and open their program to boys. I am sure there would be a market for their version of scouting in San Francisco and some other urban city centers. They are welcome to the “Scouting for All” activists who are trying to remake Boy Scouts in the image of a few.
Organizationally, the AHG program is not perfect. Relative to the BSA, their paperwork is insanely complicated and their unit costs are expensive. Their attempt to honor Jesus Christ is neither exclusive enough to satisfy the Catholics or Protestants, nor open enough to satisfy the non-Christians and Deists and Agnostics. It will be interesting to see where they go from here. For now though, I am just relieved to have an organization that I can let my daughter be a part of. For our family, Girls Scouts was NEVER an option.
Settummanque, the blackeagle (Mike Walton) Says:
12 January 2010 at 8:29 am.
Kitsap Scouter wrote and asked me:
“Mike, how can they possible merge when they are so fundamentally different? I’m not referring to the gender differences, but to their core values. I certainly don’t see GSUSA adding back the religious component. GSUSA also has no restriction on homosexuals serving in leadership (if you’ve ever been in their Los Angeles office, that’s quite evident.)
*IF* BSA feels that they need to expand their base, it ought to be with an organization whose values more closely align with theirs. It appears that BSA is deciding to turn itself into simply another Boys & Girls Club. Bad move.”
Which national organization with national resources and camping/outdoor facilities do you recommend? 4H has very little camping/outdoor resources; YWCAs are just about non-existant and again they don’t have the resources; Campfire does not have enough youth; and the rest belong to religious organizations.
I agree with you that the GSUSA’s religious and leadership stances are vastly different and many would say “more progressive” than ours at the BSA. However, I also feel that some of their stances can be curbed with pressure from both sides.
Time will tell…
Settummanque!
Maple Fan Says:
16 March 2010 at 3:30 pm.
I agree wholeheartedly that the GSUSA has essentially gutted the religious emphasis which remains in BSA. My daughter is almost done earning her Silver Award and has plans for her Gold. She was very shy when she started Scouting, and I have to thank her Girl Scout Troop for constantly encouraging her. On her own she has earned her religious awards. But I must say that if she was in a coed setting she would not have gained confidence at the pace she did. My son finished Cub Scouts and just crossed into Boy Scouts. I love the reverent moments his Den had at times, and I am equally grateful for all the gross, outdoorsy, stinky activities they had fun doing together. I believe they benefited by being outside a classroom and away from most female influences for some time. Whatever happens with these two organizations, I hope that they do not forget how huge their influence is on the kids who participate. I am opposed to girls in Cub Scouts, but I’m equally opposed to the strong feminist bent in GSUSA.
Flattail Says:
20 April 2010 at 1:09 pm.
I am afraid that if BSA is open to girls of cub scout and Welos scout age the program will evenually end up in the same condition the Girl Scouts now currently in. BSA’s venturing and Explorer programs are open to young ladies as is right due to the fact that at that age group the interaction between Girls and Boys is appropiate for their social development. Adolescent children need seperate programs. I would hate to see a wonderful program destroyed because of politcal correctness.
