11 September 2008
Definitely Not Bored
Posted by admin under: religion .
Caught sight of a blog from a non-religious family that has their daughter in Girl Scouts and deals with the balancing act of being involved with a troop/area that sounds mostly religious. While I think I can confidently say I agree with almost nothing the blogger mom has written she is funny and obviously brings up the issue of what happens when Girl Scouts has to actually work with a non-religious family. It’s not enough to simply say certain things are optional because there are feelings of children and protective parents to deal with in the real world. What are the practical considerations?
I say tentatively because, as I explained in that post, we recently discovered that one of the pledges that the girls recite involves vowing obedience to God – which, of course, poses a problem for families like ours without spiritual beliefs. So, earlier in the week, after asking my daughter for her thoughts, I sent an email to the troop leader that went like this:
Dear (___),
I have a question about the Rededication Ceremony. As our family doesn’t have any spiritual beliefs, I was wondering how to handle the Law pledge with (Sweet Pea) as I noticed it has a religious component. She told me that she doesn’t want to stand out in a conspicuous way, but she also doesn’t want to say things she doesn’t believe. I thought about having her skip the ceremony this year, but she has also expressed interest in attending the event. I’m not sure how to handle this. Do you have any suggestions?
Thanks again,
Lynn
Not sure why I haven’t heard back from her. She does work full-time, and she has a pretty busy schedule, as far as I can tell. It’s just that she usually gets right back to me when I have a question… Hopefully, this’ll all work out as Sweet Pea loves being a Girl Scout.
Just wanted to update this post:
The leader contacted me (yes, she had been very busy at work) and was very good about offering alternatives; skipping the passage, etc – or not participating this time at all since my daughter is new to GS and was never ‘initiated’ in the first place (I was wondering about that also.) We chose to skip the ceremony this time; next time, my daughter can basically choose to skip or rephrase the religious part.
I was very impressed with how the leader responded so thoughtfully to our concerns.
Despite the tongue in cheek title of her blog, if you read her, you will not be bored to tears.
- Don’t Want Him as President of BSA?
- GSUSA: Timely Rededication
- BSA Financial Bailout
- GSUSA: Time in a Bottle
- Daisy Mom Almost Kinda Regrets Stepping Down as Leader
17 Comments so far...
Walter Underwood Says:
11 September 2008 at 2:28 pm.
GSUSA policy is clear on this. They say: “The word “God” [in the Promise] can be interpreted in a number of ways, depending on one’s spiritual beliefs. When reciting the Girl Scout Promise, it is okay to replace the word “God” with whatever word your spiritual beliefs dictate.” I’m not sure where “not having any spiritual beliefs” fits in, though.
http://www.girlscouts.org/program/gs_central/promise_law/
The Wikipedia page on Religion in Scouting has great info on national and world Scouting policies. WOSM and Scouts UK seem to have thought very carefully about this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Scouting).
Scouts UK recommends specific alternate wording
Eric Says:
11 September 2008 at 5:54 pm.
Both the Boy and Girl Scouts were founded with reverance for God as one of their principles. Both have held on to that principle to this day. Neither organization tries to “force” a religion on anyone. But both have strongly held that a duty to God is a requirement for a Scout. I mention the Boy Scouts here because you can’t achieve the Eagle rank if you’re an atheist. There is a duty to God, and by your own admission, you’ve not fulfilled that duty.
After reading her post, I still don’t understand why this lady would want her child to be a part of an organization that differs from her family’s on such a core value. As Walter said, it doesn’t refer to a specific name for God, but it does refer to a deity. How does it benefit your child to teach her to pick and choose what parts of the promise she feels like reciting? It’s not her promise, it’s the Girl Scout promise. You’re either in or you’re out.
I’ll stop short of a political rant, but this is where some groups want established institutions to abandon their core beliefs to fit their beliefs, or their lack thereof. I don’t understand why you’d want to even be a part of it. Or is it that your intent is to bring it down? I’m asking – I really don’t understand.
admin Says:
11 September 2008 at 6:16 pm.
I’m not sure who your questions are directed to, but if to me then I’d hasten to point out that I wish I was able to attend church more regularly, but I keep my relationship with God active on a daily basis so I believe I’ve fulfilled my duty.
I’m involved in Girl Scouts because my wife was a Girl Scout and counted the days until she could have a baby girl and enroll her in Girl Scouts when she was old enough. Now, there are changes to the program that we’re not happy with, but we’re making our views known from within the organization while adhering to all the rules. I certainly don’t want to bring it down.
admin Says:
12 September 2008 at 12:31 pm.
Ah, I can see that you sent an e-mail to boremetotears.com. Hey! You’re famous!
http://boremetotears.com/2008/09/12/when-opting-out-means-out/
Cici Says:
13 September 2008 at 12:18 pm.
I agree with some of Eric’s points. I do think that it is a conflict of interest if you do not believe in ANY God and you want to be in Girl Scouts. Duty to God is not as big a part of Girl Scouts as it is in Boy Scouts but it is a component. I think many people choose Girl Scouting as a social group for their children. Ultimately; when they are asked to do more community service or delve deeper into badges and Interest Projects they find it may not be what they were looking for. This also explains why many parents don’t help because they were just looking for something for their daughter to participate in. Scouting isn’t just something that the kids do. Scout Parents believe in the values and opportunities of Scouting. They want their children to be in a like-minded group where citizenship; leadership; morality and self confidence is pursued; encouraged and shared. If someone doesn’t buy into ALL of that; they are not looking for Scouts.
boremetotears Says:
16 September 2008 at 7:22 pm.
Eric says, “Scout groups aren’t just a social organization, they teach character. And the values that they teach are in conflict with yours.”
Cici says. “They want their children to be in a like-minded group where citizenship; leadership; morality and self confidence is pursued; encouraged and shared. If someone doesn’t buy into ALL of that; they are not looking for Scouts.”
The level of smug ignorance being expressed (both here and at my blog) by Eric and now Cici is staggering – even by internet standards! I feel so sorry for the authentic, beautiful, thinking children who will have to share a world with yours, tutored in such small, unthinking, incestuous bigotry.
Brian Westley Says:
17 September 2008 at 3:10 pm.
By the way, Girl Scouts explicitly allows “god” in their promise to be changed to something else, and GSUSA officials have stated that atheist girls can join. They are much more inclusive than the BSA; don’t assume both organizations are identical.
Cici Says:
17 September 2008 at 4:06 pm.
1. I did say that GSUSA is much more permissive.
2. I didn’t say that Lynn was one of those parents (although her attack makes her seem awfully sensitive) … only that I feel this is a problem with many parents (whether they are atheists or if they are not patriotic or perhaps just don’t care about community service…)
3. I’ll be sure to tell my 3 scouts that you think they are not “authentic, beautiful, thinking children’ . I’m sure they will care deeply.
4. I wasn’t aware that people offering differing opinions (while not in any way belittling your beliefs) made them smug; ignorant and unthinking.
5. Eric is not my brother; so we cannot be “incestuous”. I don’t even know him… Calm down. Re-read what I wrote. Open your mind and your heart to other people. Scouting is going to expose you to MANY other people. You are going to have to learn to co-exist without calling everyone names and insulting their children…
Brian Westley Says:
17 September 2008 at 4:16 pm.
Cici, what about Girl Scout officials who have stated that atheist girls are welcome in the GSUSA?
(By the way, “incestuous” can be used as a metaphor)
Cici Says:
17 September 2008 at 5:12 pm.
Everybody is welcome. Christian parents can enroll their daughters; but they might not agree with all the program goals. They may disagree with the citizenship component. My point was that if someone is not on board with ALL of the components of the program; it might not be the right program for them. Many parents (I know from personal experience) do not enroll because they are like-minded. They just want their kids to have fun. While that is okay for awhile; it doesn’t usually last. Girl Scouts gets harder as they get older. More responsibilty – less fun. If you like what the program is about; you don’t mind the responsibility.
The fact that Lynn is an atheist isn’t as much the problem as the fact that she is bothered by the inclusion of “God” in scouting. If it bothers her enough that she would keep her daughter out of a ceremony; then this is something she needs to think long and hard about. There are probably many other organizations where God is never mentioned and she will never have to wonder what to do about her daughter’s involvement.
By the way; not all atheists have a problem with the inclusion of a duty to God. For some; it never comes up in conversation. They do not need to pull out their kids and they don’t need to make an issue of it. I don’t freak out when my child sings a Hannukkah song in the holiday show. So I would not need to reconsider whether or not that school is right for my child. It’s not an issue.
(I was just being sarcastic about the “incestuous” comment… but really; a metaphor for WHAT?)
Dawn Says:
17 September 2008 at 7:17 pm.
As the other leader in Cici’s troop and a proud Girl Scout as a child, I was highly offended at Lynn’s comments about Cici expressing smug ignorance. Being an atheist myself, I have never felt the Girl Scout Organization peddled religion to me or my child. When my daughter was learning the Girl Scout Promise, my friends were concerned that I would have a problem with the “To serve God and my country” part. I was not. To me, it was an oath , just like the pledge of allegiance (One nation, under God) which starts out, On my honor I WILL TRY. It doesn’t say that I MUST. If anyone is ignorant, it is your views that a small word in a ceremony is going to destroy all that is good in Girl Scouts for your daughter. The leader expressed perfectly what could be done and you chose to skip the ceremony, which took away from your daughter’s experience to watch the other girls rededicate themselves to scouting and look forward to it when it’s her time to do so. You have no right to bring up bigotry when you are the one who is making it an issue. And the addition of “incestuous”, even as a metaphor, were you just trying to be deep?
for the authentic, beautiful, thinking children who will have to share a world with yours, tutored in such small, unthinking, incestuous bigotry. By the way, when I recite the pledge, I say, one nation, under DOG because dogs are beautiful additions to our lives, who love you unconditionally, and no one has ever commented on me saying it that way. Ooops, I guess my secret is out.
As far as Eric’s comments, he’s entitled to his opinion, but I don’t agree with the Boy Scouts who won’t let someone fulfill Eagle Scout because they are an atheist. What about Jews or Muslims or Buddhists who don’t believe in God but have other spiritual beliefs? You can’t segregate on that basis, you’re either a Boy Scout or not.
Dawn Says:
17 September 2008 at 7:24 pm.
p.s. I noticed that there was a quote in there that looks out of place that I cut to make a point. I wanted to add that Cici’s children are all scouts who are smart, respectful, good and patriotic and they share a world with her and Josh. They’re doing o.k. Lynn don’t worry. And mine is doing just fine as well, we’re immersed in their world daily.
Matthew Says:
17 September 2008 at 9:13 pm.
Hey there, just thought I’d thrown in my two cents here, seeing as I’m amongst the insulted party. As one of the children with whom the rest of the world will apparently have to suffer with, I’d like to make it clear that I am in no way narrow-minded, unthinking, or a bigot. I am an educated, worldly, argumentative youth who ends up as a main stream American moderate because both sides have valid points and evidence that back up their arguments. The reason I tend toward the more conservative side of the scale, in addition to my distaste with loss of freedom to the government, because most of the Republican base are religious, and while this often does foster narrow-mindedness, it is a stable base of caring and fore thoughtfulness. I spent a long time grappling with my religious identity, being a youth that isn’t a sheep, it is understandable, and eventually decided that the atheist way of thinking, while it is unprovable if it is wrong or right, is counter-productive and serves no positive purpose. I chose to be religious and keep the faith, with nothing more than faith to guide me, because the alternative is a cold, soulless, insignificant life. There is no point choosing not to believe when it costs you nothing. While I may not be an active church-goer and it may be really hard to finish reading that Bible of mine, it is the concept that life has a purpose and the incentive for living a good life and repercussions against leading one that is detrimental to society that makes faith important for living life happily. I chose to believe in God and his laws and his promises for the same reason that I choose to be an optimist, because if I were to chose to believe that there is no higher being, there is no larger picture, there is no purpose for being alive or good the alternative is to lament my woes and those of the world with no possibility of a reward after leaving the living, with no vengeance for those that do terrible things, and no greater purpose that tragedies serve like hurricanes or earthquakes. “God works in mysterious ways” is just another way of saying that I would rather believe that some good came of this that I may not know about or ever learn about but I will not take it at face value as how horrendous and terrible it is. The ones that i find narrow-minded are those that chose to believe that all of these things in the world are terrible, but can live with it by doing nothing more than ignoring what they don’t have a part in.
As to the issue of being unthinking, when I can score better on any exam or test of analytical thinking than more than 90 percent of the country in addition to my ability to write the likes of that first paragraph without help, having thought about them long and hard until I reached the decision I have, I’m going to have to think very hard to find a way in which I am unthinking. And, unfortunately, that would be an example of what being smug, although I believe I have the right with those qualifications, is like, neither of the comments that you chose to quote were, they were simply statements of your inability to reconcile your beliefs into an organization that doesn’t share them, which they find to be counter-productive. One would not try to deny Jesus after becoming a member of a Catholic church because that is not something they choose to believe, they would simply find a church more in line with their ideals and thoughts, so the hypocrisy of joining an organization with an understanding that higher belief is important and then antagonizing this body which you have freely and voluntarily joined about one of their core concepts does not seem to fit in with your assertions as to your sound-mindedness. While there may be evidence of ignorance or being smug to be found elsewhere, there is none here, and I don’t believe my mother has ever so much as visited your website so I doubt there will be anything incriminating there. I’m sorry Eric, but I can’t speak for you without trying to find everything you’ve written.
The purpose of trying to cultivate faith in scouts is to try to instill in them hope and a guide for moral direction, whichever the faith may be. “I don’t care what you believe, just believe.” This is a quote that very well could have come from scouting directly, because it exemplifies the core idea that as long as you are able to think of something more than yourself or individuals that can do good or evil that there is some order or purpose and some eventual conclusion that is worked towards for the good of mankind or the universe at large no matter how debilitating each random act of violence and senseless revulsion may be by itself. If this is not a skill or trait you would like to encourage in your young scout, then perhaps scouting, church, or any other faith including organization are not the establishments for your child.
As to Dawn’s disagreement with Eric’s explanation that it is not possible to achieve Boy Scouting’s highest honor without one of the core values and ideals that scouting tries to instill in its members, I believe it would be hypocritical for them to be allowed to bestow such a title on someone who doesn’t follow their concepts just as much as someone who is a liar or thief shouldn’t be awarded Eagle for not following those ideals of scouting. This may not be an integral part of Girl Scouts and subsequently not required for earning the Gold Award, but it is still something they would like to see in their scouts which is why a duty to God is included in the Girls Scouts.
btw, I think that the incestuous comment held some veiled reference to bible-thumping red-neck hillbillies that inbreed, although considering that Cici is neither very religious or conservative, I’m not sure how it relates
admin Says:
17 September 2008 at 9:37 pm.
Just to be clear, atheism is allowed in Girl Scouts. Most Girl Scouts are not atheists. I wrote this article to point out the real-world difficulties of balancing allowed views with an organization that contains mainly people who do not share that view. Everyone is allowed their viewpoint, but we all share the common bond of Girl Scouts. That organization has rules and one of them is that inclusion of God is preferred, but not required.
Oddly, though, the GSUSA seems to be in conflict with the World Organization for the Scouting Movement which does require religious belief. Of course, the GSUSA isn’t a member of the WOSM because only one organization per country can be a member of that one and for America that organization is the Boy Scouts of America. That is why GSUSA is a member of the World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts. I’m going to have to check to see what their religious requirements are.
Isn’t religious debate fun?
Brian Westley Says:
18 September 2008 at 11:16 am.
The UK Scouting Association is also in conflict with WOSM, as the SA explicitly says that youth will not be excluded on the basis of their religious views (though they ban atheists as leaders, a requirement that is often ignored).
WOSM is in conflict with WOSM, as they state on their website that “Scouting is open to all, regardless of race or creed,” while requiring a creed to join (i.e. a belief in at least one god).
Lynn Says:
26 September 2008 at 4:32 am.
–Cici said, “I do think that it is a conflict of interest if you do not believe in ANY God and you want to be in Girl Scouts.”
Does Dawn know this? Or does believing in dogs count? I’m asking because I also believe in dogs and now I’m wondering if all of this arguing has been for nothing.
Really, as I told Eric, the idea that belief in “any” god (there are 2,850 known deities, at last count) affords some unifying set of morals – conspiculously lacking in nonbelievers, of course – is both preposterous and dishonest.
Further, it might be a good idea for some of you to calm down and re-read what I’ve said. For example, if Dawn doesn’t care to whom or what she pledges loyalty (they’re just little words) that’s her business; but, as I stated in my response to Eric, I don’t want my daughter taking oaths that she doesn’t mean. It’s called “being responsible for what you say and do” – and it’s part of the Girl Scout Promise, That. Was. The. Whole. Point.
I have tremendous respect for our troop leader and it wouldn’t have been diminished in any way had she responded that GS was a religious organization. But she didn’t, because it isn’t. What enfuriates me are the replies that I’m getting to that post; the smug insinuations that nonbelieving children are somehow lacking in “character” (Eric’s word) because they don’t worship “any” god.
–Dawn said, ” I have never felt the Girl Scout Organization peddled religion to me or my child.”
Great. So what? Just recently, at GS camp, my daughter was expected to sing songs to “the Lord”; the girls also “got in trouble” for not bowing their heads and clasping their hands at mealtime when a Christian prayer was recited. So, is GS a Christian organization, or isn’t it? GS professes no religious requirement, but the obvious undercurrent of Christian privilege still present is something to which, yes, “authentic, beautiful, thinking,” nonreligious children should not be subjected. This talk of parents wanting for their children “like-minded” peer realtionships, in which “citizenship; leadership; morality and self confidence is pursued; encouraged and shared” is so transparent. Backpeddle all you want.
A parting example: Responding to Eric’s statement that one can’t earn Eagle status without a professed belief in a god, Matthew (boy scout and Cici’s son?) agreed that doing so would be like awarding the honor to “someone who is a liar or thief.” Excuse me? Further, atheists lead “cold, soulless, insignificant (lives), absent of “purpose for being alive or good.” Now, I’m not accusing Matthew of being unthinking (especially since he “can score better on any exam or test of analytical thinking than more than 90 percent of the country in addition to (his) ability to write the likes of (his) first paragraph without help”), but this is really the kind of thing I’m talking about. I don’t know how old Matthew is or how often he gets out, but I sure wouldn’t want nonbelieving children exposed this kind of thinking whether expressed by scouts themselves, parent troop leaders, or the organization as a whole.
Cici Says:
26 September 2008 at 9:19 pm.
Here’s the thing hon. I expressed an opinion and you insulted my children. So don’t get on a high horse. You opened yourself up to attack. I never said anything negative about your daughter. I didn’t even say anything negative about you. You can quote me all you want… it doesn’t change a thing. I don’t care if you live in a church; that makes you a rotten person. I don’t care AT ALL that you’re an atheist. You are just not an adult.
Girl Scouts isn’t a Christian organization. The people leading that event WERE Christians. Volunteers bring their own experience to whatever they plan. If you don’t agree; you should be a leader yourself or organize events that won’t have prayers. I have religious families in my troop but they do not require me to read psalms. I never think to do a grace (too busy to remember that it is often a tradition and that there are many non-religious graces like the Superman Grace)… When I got a parent who REALLY wanted to do grace – I told her that she was welcome to do that with the group and be in charge. I did not mind allowing people to have different needs and backgrounds. Saying grace is not offensive to me (even though I don’t do it) because it is done in good-spirits. It is a positive thing. Girl Scouts expose you to many different people. When those people are open-minded; it’s a great experience to learn to live together. You clearly are not open minded. I wasn’t talking about you before – but I am now.
“Everybody is welcome. Christian parents can enroll their daughters; but they might not agree with all the program goals. They may disagree with the citizenship component. My point was that if someone is not on board with ALL of the components of the program; it might not be the right program for them.” Look; I can quote me too. It MIGHT NOT be the program for them. Apparently; it IS the right program for Dawn. And she doesn’t disagree with the organization TRYING “TO SERVE GOD”. She doesn’t think that it is bad or awkward or negative or uncomfortable… That’s why she and her daughter are deeply involved in Scouting.
You don’t need to get God… you need to get a life.
